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Author Topic: Hey Squirrel...  (Read 17812 times)

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Hey Squirrel...
« on: Aug 23, 2008, 02:57:34 PM »
This may be a heated subject but you're the moste educated conservative Christian I know...

I'm curious to what verses or paragraphs in the Bible are the basis for the pro-life stance of the Christian church. I mean, if the church has a stance I would assume it would have a firm basis in fact or Scripture and not just "it feels right".
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Re: Hey Squirrel...
« Reply #1 on: Aug 23, 2008, 04:59:28 PM »
I think I read that the bible says something about abortion being ok in the old testament.  Well not ok, but it was something strange that pointed out that they knew what abortion was back then.  Like if you hit a pregnant woman so hard that she miscarriages you have to give her family 2 plump goats or some such.

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Re: Hey Squirrel...
« Reply #2 on: Aug 23, 2008, 09:59:56 PM »
You are wrong.  It's a capital offense under the Mosaic law.

Quote from: Exodus 21:22-25, NKJV
“If men fight, and hurt a woman with child, so that she gives birth prematurely, yet no harm follows, he shall surely be punished accordingly as the woman’s husband imposes on him; and he shall pay as the judges determine. But if any harm follows, then you shall give life for life, eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot, burn for burn, wound for wound, stripe for stripe."

You can look up a variety of verses on the sanctity of human life, the fact that God sees a fetus' personhood prior to birth, and the role of Christians with government, but that one passage clearly teaches God's opinion on the fact.  If you want more, fine, but Google'll be quicker.
« Last Edit: Aug 23, 2008, 10:01:27 PM by Rodent of Unusual Size »
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Re: Hey Squirrel...
« Reply #3 on: Aug 24, 2008, 12:25:58 AM »
My town is getting a Planned Parenthood after having a Right to Life center for almost two years.  I saw some raggedy old women protesting PP the other day and would have yelled something like, "Planned Parenthood is not an abortion clinic but a place for women to make a conscious decision as to making their own decision to have children rather than society forcing the decision upon them!" if it wasn't so long to yell on a busy street.
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Re: Hey Squirrel...
« Reply #4 on: Aug 24, 2008, 12:40:59 AM »
You could just yell "Thems where I get me pills bitches!" instead. Lacks the impact I know...but still true never-the-less.

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Re: Hey Squirrel...
« Reply #5 on: Aug 24, 2008, 12:56:56 AM »
See I read that passage somewhere as this:

    "And if men struggle and strike a woman with child so that she has a miscarriage, yet there is no further injury, he shall be fined as the woman's husband may demand of him, and he shall pay as the judges decide. But if there is any further injury, then you shall appoint as a penalty life for life, eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot, burn for burn, wound for wound, bruise for bruise."

Exodus 21:22-25

Which is different.

and then to back that up...

BEHOLD!

This is a very illuminating passage. In it we find a woman losing her child by being stuck by men who are fighting. Rather than it being a capital offense, however, it is relegated to a civil matter, with the father-to-be taking the participants to court for a settlement. But, as we read on, if the woman is killed, a "life for a life," then the men who killed her shall be killed. Some have claimed that the life for a life part is talking about the baby. But from reading the context we can see this is not true. It also states a tooth for a tooth and a burn for a burn. Babies don't have teeth when they are born, and it is highly unlikely a baby will be burned during birth. It is pretty clear that this part refers to the mother. Thus we can see that if the baby is lost, it does not require a death sentence -- it is not considered murder. But if the woman is lost, it is considered murder and is punished by death.

It's important to note that some anti-abortion lobbyists want to convince us the baby in this passage survived the miscarriage. They point to the more "politically-correct" translation they find in the New International Version of the Bible. There it translates the term "miscarriage" into "gives birth prematurely" (the actual words in Hebrew translate "she lose her offspring"). While this may give them the warm and fuzzy notion that this verse might actually support their cause if maybe the child survived, it is wishful thinking at best. In our modern era of miracle medicine only 60% of all premature births survive. Three thousand years ago, when this passage was written, they did not have modern technology to keep a preemie alive. In fact, at that time, more than half of all live births died before their first birthday. In a world like that, a premature birth was a death sentence.

Others have looked to the actual Hebrew words, themselves, to try and refute these verses. They note that the word "yalad" is used in verse 22 to describe the untimely birth, and that yalad is also used in other places to describe a live birth. They then go on to say other places in the Bible use the words "nefel" and "shakol" to describe a miscarriage. Therefore, the argument goes, the baby in Exodus 21:22 must have been born alive. It's easy to see how a novice might make this mistake, but a closer look at the words in question reveal the flaw in this argument.

The word yalad is a verb that describes the process of something coming out - the departing of the fetus. Since it is describing the process, and not the result, it could be used to describe either a live birth or a miscarriage. Shakol which shows up in Hosea 9:14, is also a verb, but its meaning is to make a woman barren. Now a barren woman certainly might miscarry, but with this understanding of the word, it's clear why the writer of Exodus would not have used it since this miscarriage was caused by an accident, not by barrenness. And the word nefel is not even a verb. It's a noun. True, as a noun it is the term for a miscarried fetus, but the writer wasn't using a noun. He was using a verb to describe the coming out of the fetus. Thus, if I were describing a man falling to his death, I would use the verb "to fall" which can be used for both those who die and those who survive a fall, but to describe the man himself I would use the word the "fatality." So we can see that while a novice might mistake a verb for a noun and come to the wrong conclusions about the original Hebrew words used in the Exodus passage, a more careful look proves that the words only describe the action of losing the fetus, not the fetus itself. And that being the case, we can't use the Hebrew translations to determine if the fetus was alive or not when it came out - so we are forced to accept that in all certainly, considering the medical knowledge at the time, the preemie died. This makes it even more clear that the "tooth for a tooth" passage refers only to the mother, not to the miscarried fetus.

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Re: Hey Squirrel...
« Reply #6 on: Aug 24, 2008, 12:58:18 AM »
CTRL-C, CTRL-V MEHA MEEEHHHAAAAAAAAAA! 


(Now I'll go back and actually read it)

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Re: Hey Squirrel...
« Reply #7 on: Aug 24, 2008, 01:01:23 AM »
Seems pretty compelling.

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Re: Hey Squirrel...
« Reply #8 on: Aug 24, 2008, 01:13:03 AM »
You could just yell "Thems where I get me pills bitches!" instead. Lacks the impact I know...but still true never-the-less.


But it's not where I get me pills.  I go to the free clinic where I just have to show them two pay stubs.
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Re: Hey Squirrel...
« Reply #9 on: Aug 24, 2008, 01:19:16 AM »
Even when I'm in a monogymous relationship with a girl whose on the pill I like to pull out anyway.  Not to err on the side of caution but rather because I'm like a baby batter bazooka.  If I did pr0n they need to film it in bullet time and add in cartoon ricochet sounds to properly capture the experience.

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Re: Hey Squirrel...
« Reply #10 on: Aug 24, 2008, 01:39:29 AM »
You could just yell "Thems where I get me pills bitches!" instead. Lacks the impact I know...but still true never-the-less.


But it's not where I get me pills.  I go to the free clinic where I just have to show them two pay stubs.

They don't know that!

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Re: Hey Squirrel...
« Reply #11 on: Aug 25, 2008, 12:22:57 AM »
Planned Parenthood is an abortion advocacy group that is being investigated by multiple state justice systems for not divulging sexual predators of underage victims.  Having one of their offices in town is nothing to be proud of.

Get ready for a wall of text.

John MacArthur is widely considered a leading authority on original biblical languages...most certainly not a "novice".  Here is what he has said on the subject before (I underlined for emphasis particular segments with regards to IDE's quoted assertions):

Quote
I am convinced that the fury of God will someday fall on the murderers of His creatures who have not sought His forgiveness. God is the protector of the innocent. Now to illustrate this Biblically; go back to Exodus 21. This is one of the really important passages about abortion, Exodus 21:22; and here in this section of Scripture following the Ten Commandments, God gives a number of laws that regard life and all of its myriad of circumstances. In Exodus 21 we have a very interesting account; it says to us in verse 22,

Quote
If men struggle with each other (now you follow carefully) and strike a woman with child (I don't know what you version says; some say "so she has a miscarriage," some say, "So she has an untimely birth"), yet there is no further injury, he shall surely be fined as the woman's husband may demand of him; and he shall pay as the judges decide. But if there is any further injury, then you shall appoint as a penalty life for life, eye for eye, hand for hand, foot for foot, burn for burn, wound for wound, bruise for bruise.

Now what is this saying? One of the unfortunate translations in the New American Standard is the translation "miscarriage." (This sermon was originally composed in 1993...the NASB was editted in 1995 to be more literal to the original texts, so this caveat no longer applies - ROUS) I don't know why they translated the Hebrew term here "miscarriage." There is no reason, at least in my mind, to believe that verse 22 refers to a miscarriage. There is a contextual support for that as well as linguistic. The literal Hebrew reading is simply this, "And if men struggle with each other and strike a woman with child (here's the Hebrew) so that her children come out." That's what it says. In other words, it causes the child to come out. "Yet there is no further injury, then he shall surely be fined as the husband (or the woman's husband) may demand of him; and be paid as whatever the judges or the courts allow." Yalad is the common Hebrew word for child. The only irregularity here in that word is that it is plural. And it is unlikely that it means a developing fetus that has been miscarried.

The verb (Hebrew, yasa) often refers to ordinary childbirth, and so it says the struggle happens: two men are fighting, one gets involved in this fight; and probably a woman steps in (you know, the wife to try to stop the fight) and she gets struck so that her children come out (just looking at it on the plural sense); that is, an ordinary childbirth takes place. By the way, that term (Hebrew, yasa) referring to ordinary childbirth is used in Genesis 15:4 and Isaiah 39:7 of a childbirth generated from the loins of the father and also in Genesis 25 and 26, and Jeremiah 1, about a birth that comes out of the womb of the mother. So from the father's side and the mother's side the term is used to express a child that is born.

In no case does that term (Hebrew, yasa) refer to a miscarriage. Numbers 12:12 uses it but it refers to a still birth—not a miscarriage. The Hebrew word for miscarriage (shakal) used in Exodus 23:26, Hosea 9:14, is not used in this verse. So what you have here is a premature birth.

Now, follow the thought: two men are fighting, the woman probably steps in; she gets hit in the process and consequently the trauma causes a premature birth. If all that happens is that the child comes out and there is no further injury, then there should be a fine for the discomfort, for the problems that might come to take care of the child, and to take care of the woman because of whatever trauma she suffered. If there is any debate about it, then the judges can discern what that should be. "But if there is any further injury. . . ." What would "any further injury" be? Well, it would have to mean something more severe, including the loss of life; "then you shall appoint as a penalty life for life."

What's the point? The point is: if you are responsible for killing an unborn child you pay with your life. That's the point. It is constituted as murder.

"No further injury," then in verse 22, has been incorrectly taken to mean that there has been some kind of a miscarriage. The equivalent of "further" doesn't appear in the Hebrew text. It simply says (you'll notice probably that "further" is in italics), it just says "if there is no injury." If the child is born and there is no injury—fine. Settle whatever be the medical costs, if there are any, but if there is more than that, if there is injury to the child, if there is injury to the mother then "lex talionis" [Latin], that is, "tit for tat" takes place. If the child has suffered in one area—the penalty is the same. If the child dies then the penalty is life. It is just the idea of appropriate punishment, but what it points out is: if the child comes out and his eye is injured—you lose your eye. If he comes out and his hand is injured—your lose your hand. If his foot—his foot, and so forth, and so forth. Wound for wound—that's justice, but if the child dies you pay with your life. "Lex talionis" the law of retaliation.

So Scripture teaches us then very, very clearly that conception is an act of God; that every person conceived is conceived in the image of God, and that each person is the special care of God. Nothing illustrates that more than if you injure a child that is untimely born and you have inflicted that injury—you pay a just punishment including, if you kill that child—you pay with your life. God has special care for those who are helpless.

A few things to add: if this passage has nothing to do with a penalty for the death of the child,  as IDE's quote asserts, then why make a special case out of it?  If the case being expounded upon actually centered around the death of the mother, then it'd clearly fall under the general description of murder with no exposition required.  Rather, it is in line with God's overall esteem of childen and babies in scripture, most dramatically illustrated with His disgust at the child sacrifice of the pagan peoples in the area.  Additionally, Jews did not expose (abandon to the wild) their children, a common ancient practice.  Also, biblical prohibitions against many sorts of drugs included those which induced abortions, which were around for many years and certainly during the Hellenistic Age.
« Last Edit: Aug 25, 2008, 12:30:43 AM by Rodent of Unusual Size »
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Re: Hey Squirrel...
« Reply #12 on: Aug 25, 2008, 04:18:36 AM »
"Abortions for some, miniature American flags for others!"

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Re: Hey Squirrel...
« Reply #13 on: Aug 25, 2008, 08:20:11 AM »
*drinks another toast to doc who did my Essure sterilization*  :bernie: :raiseroof:

Quote
My town is getting a Planned Parenthood after having a Right to Life center for almost two years.  I saw some raggedy old women protesting PP the other day and would have yelled something like, "Planned Parenthood is not an abortion clinic but a place for women to make a conscious decision as to making their own decision to have children rather than society forcing the decision upon them!" if it wasn't so long to yell on a busy street.

Yeah, a screeching loonie hit me in the forehead with a rock in the parking lot when I was 20 because I had no health insurance and PP was the only place I could afford a well woman exam - every woman who walks in the door must be going for an abortion.  ::)
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Re: Hey Squirrel...
« Reply #14 on: Aug 25, 2008, 10:32:41 AM »
GTFO, AMERICA HATER!!!
I said its hot outside let me go swimming in your eyes;
We been running for awhile. Why don't you lay dow, I'll make you smile.
I could never ask for nothing better than this;
It's just tequila and the beach, it's quite salty when we kiss.

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Re: Hey Squirrel...
« Reply #15 on: Aug 25, 2008, 10:32:54 AM »
But don't you know that your baby had fingernails at that point?
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Re: Hey Squirrel...
« Reply #16 on: Aug 25, 2008, 10:36:28 AM »
They apparently didn't help when that needle pierced it's brain.
I said its hot outside let me go swimming in your eyes;
We been running for awhile. Why don't you lay dow, I'll make you smile.
I could never ask for nothing better than this;
It's just tequila and the beach, it's quite salty when we kiss.

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Re: Hey Squirrel...
« Reply #17 on: Aug 25, 2008, 11:04:16 AM »
Super Behbee should have come rocketing out the cooch to claw their eyes out!
Political Correctness is a doctrine, fostered by a delusional, illogical, liberal minority and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a turd by the clean end.

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Re: Hey Squirrel...
« Reply #18 on: Aug 25, 2008, 11:51:16 AM »
Yes... but the clump in the toliet never was super... a shame.
I said its hot outside let me go swimming in your eyes;
We been running for awhile. Why don't you lay dow, I'll make you smile.
I could never ask for nothing better than this;
It's just tequila and the beach, it's quite salty when we kiss.

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Re: Hey Squirrel...
« Reply #19 on: Aug 25, 2008, 12:22:56 PM »
Is there a point past which the egg can be harvested and frozen for IVF?  Wouldn't that quell a lot of hostility?
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Re: Hey Squirrel...
« Reply #20 on: Aug 25, 2008, 12:28:26 PM »
Yes... but the clump in the toliet never was super... a shame.
 

The bigger shame is that human life is so cavalierly destroyed, usually in the name of personal fiat.

Is there a point past which the egg can be harvested and frozen for IVF?  Wouldn't that quell a lot of hostility?

An egg is only half the equation.
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Re: Hey Squirrel...
« Reply #21 on: Aug 25, 2008, 12:31:51 PM »
I should have been more specific - fertilized egg harvested and frozen.
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Re: Hey Squirrel...
« Reply #22 on: Aug 25, 2008, 12:42:23 PM »
We destroy human life everyday through our existence. I don't see why abortion is so evil in comparison.
I said its hot outside let me go swimming in your eyes;
We been running for awhile. Why don't you lay dow, I'll make you smile.
I could never ask for nothing better than this;
It's just tequila and the beach, it's quite salty when we kiss.

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Re: Hey Squirrel...
« Reply #23 on: Aug 25, 2008, 12:49:02 PM »
That's part of what I'm getting at.  One woman doesn't want the egg/zygote/whatever, give it to a woman who does.  Isn't that better than putting the woman who doesn't want anything to do with a baby through the agony of pregnancy to birth for adoption purposes?
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Re: Hey Squirrel...
« Reply #24 on: Aug 25, 2008, 11:41:08 PM »
The destruction of human life is tragic, regardless of the circumstances, whether it's an aborted child who dies in a clinic, a neglected child who dies in the gutter, the young who die in accidents, the fighter who dies in battle, the civilian who dies after being mistaken for the enemy, the victim felled by a criminal, that criminal dying at the hands of the state, and an elderly person dying alone in a nursing home.  In your estimation, does any of that justify the needless destruction of millions of people by what is largely personal fiat by any stretch of the imagination? 

I'm no expert on embryonic donation or whatever, but if no harm comes to it then I see no problem with it.  But IIRC it's a compromise since in vitro fertilization techniques require the availability of multiple embryos, many of which wind up destroyed in the end.  Otherwise, this would be a particularly attractive solution in the case of the pregnancy being created through a criminal act.  But if they're doing it just because they were stupid and got knocked up and don't want the hassle of bearing that child, then it really doesn't solve the root problem, and I see no reason to destroy a human life due to, again, personal fiat. 
« Last Edit: Aug 25, 2008, 11:43:37 PM by Rodent of Unusual Size »
Political Correctness is a doctrine, fostered by a delusional, illogical, liberal minority and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a turd by the clean end.

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Re: Hey Squirrel...
« Reply #25 on: Aug 26, 2008, 02:02:34 AM »
I don't mind abortion if the baby is still a ball of snot with no human shape.  After that I get squeamish and uncertain about the whole thing.

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Re: Hey Squirrel...
« Reply #26 on: Aug 26, 2008, 09:05:42 AM »
I say abortions for all.
I said its hot outside let me go swimming in your eyes;
We been running for awhile. Why don't you lay dow, I'll make you smile.
I could never ask for nothing better than this;
It's just tequila and the beach, it's quite salty when we kiss.

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Re: Hey Squirrel...
« Reply #27 on: Aug 26, 2008, 03:49:20 PM »
I say abortions for all of the perfectly nice male fan fiction characters that suffer when the writer suddendly goes crazy in the middle of the story and makes them pregnant.  :razz:
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Re: Hey Squirrel...
« Reply #28 on: Aug 26, 2008, 05:49:30 PM »
CTRL-C, CTRL-V MEHA MEEEHHHAAAAAAAAAA! 


(Now I'll go back and actually read it)

And here I thought you typed that entire thing out of your own head and was in awe. You almost made me think you were extremely smart and scholarly. Now I know you're just good at copypasta.

Quote
“If men fight, and hurt a woman with child, so that she gives birth prematurely, yet no harm follows, he shall surely be punished accordingly as the woman’s husband imposes on him; and he shall pay as the judges determine. But if any harm follows, then you shall give life for life, eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot, burn for burn, wound for wound, stripe for stripe."

The first part just says if the woman has a baby prematurely due to injury, the father of the baby can take the man who injured her to court and demand compensation, like gold coins or a firstborn calf. I would probably agree with IDE's copypasta and say the second half refers to only the woman, not the baby, but it's possible it refers to the baby as well. However, this law is about if a woman is injured accidently or intentionally by someone else during a fight, not if she aborts intentionally which wouldn't be during a fight. Notice how the first sentence says "If men fight AND", in other word the law only applys to women injured due to deliberate violence, not an abortion, even though they didn't even have abortions during those times.

Oh, and it's true that this is a part of the Mosaic law, but who nowadays actually follows the "eye for an eye" form of punishment. You don't see people being stoned to death for adultery anymore, and those who are Christian and have commited adultery would protest the idea of being stoned. Wether you believe abortion is right or wrong, I would assume you wouldn't think that abortion doctors or the women having the abortions should be killed?


I'd be interested in hearing those other verses, especially the ones on Christianity and Government.
« Last Edit: Aug 26, 2008, 05:53:20 PM by Dangerous D »
I like to go down to the playground and watch the kids run and jump and scream, because they don't know I'm only using blanks.

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Re: Hey Squirrel...
« Reply #29 on: Aug 26, 2008, 05:58:58 PM »
What if we could somehow turn an unwanted fetus into a WMD?  In Soviet Russia, baby aborts you!