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Author Topic: "Hope + Change = Presidency"  (Read 62096 times)

Rama

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Re: "Hope + Change = Presidency"
« Reply #60 on: Jun 22, 2008, 12:13:59 AM »
But that's how it is in the movies...it must be true.

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Re: "Hope + Change = Presidency"
« Reply #61 on: Jun 22, 2008, 12:25:40 PM »
Not to mention the kudzu. Japan didn't just take over your kids.
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Re: "Hope + Change = Presidency"
« Reply #62 on: Jun 24, 2008, 02:50:11 PM »
I agree with Squirrel. We should drill the hell out of Alaska. Fuck the polar bears. If they don't like it they can move to Canada.
I like to go down to the playground and watch the kids run and jump and scream, because they don't know I'm only using blanks.

Modern anime is a stagnant cesspool of regurgitated ideas.

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Re: "Hope + Change = Presidency"
« Reply #63 on: Jun 24, 2008, 02:59:29 PM »
I think we should just switch to some other energy source as a big fuck you to all those arab pigs.

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Re: "Hope + Change = Presidency"
« Reply #64 on: Jun 24, 2008, 03:03:26 PM »
Popular Mechanics/Science in the 50s said that we'd have fusion generators in our house/cars by now. LIES! Where the fuck's my Mr. Fusion dammit?!
I like to go down to the playground and watch the kids run and jump and scream, because they don't know I'm only using blanks.

Modern anime is a stagnant cesspool of regurgitated ideas.

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Re: "Hope + Change = Presidency"
« Reply #65 on: Jun 24, 2008, 03:04:14 PM »
We do really need to shrink our dependence on oil period...not just foreign oil. Drilling for more here is just a Band-Aid on a bigger problem. 

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Re: "Hope + Change = Presidency"
« Reply #66 on: Jun 24, 2008, 05:43:35 PM »
Yeah, agreed. They can make electric cars with the same performance as gasoline cars. Yet, we don't. W T F. I just await for the day when the oil runs out... then the Saudis will vanish back into the sand.
I said its hot outside let me go swimming in your eyes;
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Rama

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Re: "Hope + Change = Presidency"
« Reply #67 on: Jun 24, 2008, 11:14:40 PM »
More of Bio-Fuel supporter myself. That way we can sell the oil to the Arabs and ass rape them. Because they ain't growing shit in sand.

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Re: "Hope + Change = Presidency"
« Reply #68 on: Jun 25, 2008, 12:24:35 AM »
I agree with Squirrel. We should drill the hell out of Alaska. Fuck the polar bears. If they don't like it they can move to Canada.

The polar bears will all be dead soon anyway.

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Re: "Hope + Change = Presidency"
« Reply #69 on: Jun 25, 2008, 12:30:28 AM »
How are you planning on supplying powet to an electricar...pedalling?  We're operating at capacity as it is: imagine putting millions of cars on charge on top of it.  Instant blackout!  Plus, battery technology is far too limited to make it worthwhile.  An electricar doesn't have the range of a conventional vehicle (particularly for highway driving) and recharging one takes too damn long.

As for biofuels, would you rather be able to afford food while breathing dirty air, or starve to death in a pristine, aromatic cave?  A big cause of food prices going up (particularly hard-hitting in poor regions of the world) is the fact that your government doles out billions in tax credits to farmers to grow cr0n for ethynol production, diverting percentages formerly going to the food supply and not having a prayer of being economical without such huge subsidies.

We're not running out of oil anytime soon.  We can (BTW, we already are!) develop alternative sources while drilling the fuck out of the earth, which will survive far more than we could ever throw at it.  And then we'll be in the position to tell the Arabs to use their oil derricks for drinking fountains...or suppositories.  There's just no other viable alternative available to us over the next few decades.

The polar bears will all be dead soon anyway.

This is what I think of a mother-loving polar bear:


Over 95% of all creatures that ever lived on the earth are now extinct.  Putting one more on the list doesn't matter to a hill of beans.  Even so, drilling there won't kill them any more than running the pipeline there killed off the caribou (who cottoned to the warmth supplied by it and are doing better now than before).
Political Correctness is a doctrine, fostered by a delusional, illogical, liberal minority and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a turd by the clean end.

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Re: "Hope + Change = Presidency"
« Reply #70 on: Jun 25, 2008, 12:40:15 AM »
Quote
As for biofuels, would you rather be able to afford food while breathing dirty air, or starve to death in a pristine, aromatic cave?  A big cause of food prices going up (particularly hard-hitting in poor regions of the world) is the fact that your government doles out billions in tax credits to farmers to grow cr0n for ethynol production, diverting percentages formerly going to the food supply and not having a prayer of being economical without such huge subsidies.


I'm not worried about food prices in the long run. Supply will meet up with demand. Most agricultural nations are not producing nearly as much as they could. In fact it's been on the decline in the last several decades. Same thing happened when the Cotton Gin came along. The cotton being produced couldn't keep up with the demand that was placed on it and it shot up in price, but it came back down as soon as more people started growing cotton. The same will happen here. In the short term food prices will go up, but they will balance out. In fact there may come a day when it's more profitable to sell it for food, then fuel. We could think about just the short term, but that's what got us in this spot to begin with.


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Re: "Hope + Change = Presidency"
« Reply #71 on: Jun 25, 2008, 12:57:59 AM »
Don't forget the virus that will eventually come in and kill a shitload of people, making more food and oil available.  You know it's gonna happen.

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Re: "Hope + Change = Presidency"
« Reply #72 on: Jun 25, 2008, 01:00:51 AM »
Isn't that what the AIDs is already doing?

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Re: "Hope + Change = Presidency"
« Reply #73 on: Jun 25, 2008, 01:04:42 AM »
It was doing good enough in the 80's but lately it's been slacking off.

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Re: "Hope + Change = Presidency"
« Reply #74 on: Jun 25, 2008, 01:05:50 AM »
Don't worry...Super Aids is coming.

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Re: "Hope + Change = Presidency"
« Reply #75 on: Jun 25, 2008, 01:10:08 AM »
Pfft, probably the viral equivalent to Superdog.

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Re: "Hope + Change = Presidency"
« Reply #76 on: Jun 25, 2008, 01:10:33 AM »
We're all going to die of cancer or something equally mundane.  Too much radiation from satellites, cell towers, and other high frequency bombardment in addition to traditional UV rays and humanity's continued physical devolution.

I'm not worried about food prices in the long run. Supply will meet up with demand. Most agricultural nations are not producing nearly as much as they could. In fact it's been on the decline in the last several decades. Same thing happened when the Cotton Gin came along. The cotton being produced couldn't keep up with the demand that was placed on it and it shot up in price, but it came back down as soon as more people started growing cotton. The same will happen here. In the short term food prices will go up, but they will balance out. In fact there may come a day when it's more profitable to sell it for food, then fuel. We could think about just the short term, but that's what got us in this spot to begin with.

Zimbabwe being an ideal example...it was the breadbasket of Africa until Mugabe took over, and now the populace is starving and having to import food.  Don't expect them (or most other nations in similar shape) to come back online anytime in this generation.  And forget about an increase in American food production...rather the opposite, so long as incentives to grow for ethynol continue to interfere.  

No, it won't balance out at this rate, and I don't see this problem as being at all similar to the cotton industry prior to the advent of the cotton gin.  The problem with cotton before Eli Whitney's invention was not the supply of cotton itself (as is the case with the current food problem) but one of cleaning the fiber and making a usable product out of it more quickly, easily, and more economically.  There is no "cr0n gin" that can come along and fix the problem we're experiencing with higher cr0n, as the problem is squarely on square one: supply.  

Conversely, the problem with oil prices is primarily one of supply, with lower than necessary refining capacity, ridiculous investing in oil futures, ongoing OPEC price tampering, and U.S. government stupidity thrown into the mix.
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Re: "Hope + Change = Presidency"
« Reply #77 on: Jun 25, 2008, 01:24:32 AM »
Zimbabwe being an ideal example...it was the breadbasket of Africa until Mugabe took over, and now the populace is starving and having to import food.  Don't expect them (or most other nations in similar shape) to come back online anytime in this generation.


And extreme example you mean.   

And forget about an increase in American food production...rather the opposite, so long as incentives to grow for ethynol continue to interfere.


And those are to get the framework off the ground. Those will not keep going...I mean unless we want this to be just like Oil companies now.

Quote
No, it won't balance out at this rate, and I don't see this problem as being at all similar to the cotton industry prior to the advent of the cotton gin.  The problem with cotton before Eli Whitney's invention was not the supply of cotton itself (as is the case with the current food problem) but one of cleaning the fiber and making a usable product out of it more quickly, easily, and more economically.  There is no "cr0n gin" that can come along and fix the problem we're experiencing with higher cr0n, as the problem is squarely on square one: supply.


Actually I was speaking of increased demand for Cotton AFTER the invention of Gin. It made it easier and faster to produce wearable cotton and thus a greater demand was placed on the crop because more people were using it and at a faster rate. The demand met up with that. The example had nothing to do with the Gin it's self. So I agree there is no "Corn Gin" that'll fix it, but since that wasn't what I was saying at all I don't see what what that has to do with it.

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Re: "Hope + Change = Presidency"
« Reply #78 on: Jun 25, 2008, 10:36:07 PM »
And extreme example you mean.  

Granted.

And those are to get the framework off the ground. Those will not keep going...I mean unless we want this to be just like Oil companies now.


The problem is that cr0n is not a good source for ethanol.  It doesn't absorb as much CO2 from the atmosphere as it contributes in emissions, it requires additional energy to transform into sugar (and there's no way as of now to make the process more efficient), and it just doesn't produce enough of the stuff when cooked.  Sugar cane's really the best source for ethanol, as cr0n, soybean, and the various sorts of switch-grass and stuff require much more put into them to make them work out, and the U.S. climate isn't conducive to cane.  And if every square foot of land in this nation were used to grow cr0n, we wouldn't be able to meet half our fuel requirements.

Actually I was speaking of increased demand for Cotton AFTER the invention of Gin. It made it easier and faster to produce wearable cotton and thus a greater demand was placed on the crop because more people were using it and at a faster rate. The demand met up with that. The example had nothing to do with the Gin it's self. So I agree there is no "Corn Gin" that'll fix it, but since that wasn't what I was saying at all I don't see what what that has to do with it.

My point is that cotton gins had no influence on the cost to produce or make available crude cotton.  Our problem is with the pre-existing cost to produce and make available crude oil.  And, as I said earlier, there's currently no other known way to make the production of cr0n ethanol more efficient.

But I confess that I liked the "cr0n gin" thing.
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Re: "Hope + Change = Presidency"
« Reply #79 on: Jun 26, 2008, 01:36:04 PM »

The problem is that cr0n is not a good source for ethanol.  It doesn't absorb as much CO2 from the atmosphere as it contributes in emissions, it requires additional energy to transform into sugar (and there's no way as of now to make the process more efficient), and it just doesn't produce enough of the stuff when cooked.  Sugar cane's really the best source for ethanol, as cr0n, soybean, and the various sorts of switch-grass and stuff require much more put into them to make them work out, and the U.S. climate isn't conducive to cane.  And if every square foot of land in this nation were used to grow cr0n, we wouldn't be able to meet half our fuel requirements



And drilling in Alaska would not produce enough oil to even come close to breaking OPECs hold. It would litterally be a drop in the hat. We would have to increase our oil production many times to even keep up with them. Not to mention it will take years, if not decades before we start seeing that Crude Oil on the open Market.

Quote

My point is that cotton gins had no influence on the cost to produce or make available crude cotton.  Our problem is with the pre-existing cost to produce and make available crude oil.  And, as I said earlier, there's currently no other known way to make the production of cr0n ethanol more efficient.


Well really Ethanol doesn't effect the cost to grow cr0n either. I mean other then Corn seed going up, but that is just supply and demand factor in play again.  When Supply catches up....price will go down.

And just cause there is not a current way to make it more efficient doesn't mean we should just go "Oh well...guess will just use Oil for the 50 years and not bother with that till we run out." That's stupid, and really doesn't do anything to get us out of the situation we are in now.

Same with Electric cars. They don't work very well now, but that doesn't mean we should just give up on them. I mean imagine if Bell invented his Telephone and then just went..."Well I can't make it better with what I got, better just give up and go back to using the Telegraph." We wouldn't be having this debate right here if that happened.

Given how much things like the computer have advanced in as little as ten years it's entirely possible that these methods could take the place of oil very easily in the next 5-10 years, but we have to actual work at it and not just go with the status quo....which if you haven't noticed isn't really working at the moment. There could be a cr0n gin out there....but we won't know if we don't bother trying to make one.
« Last Edit: Jun 26, 2008, 01:39:39 PM by Rama »

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Re: "Hope + Change = Presidency"
« Reply #80 on: Jun 27, 2008, 12:36:26 AM »
What about people as fuel?  That'll fix our energy problem, homeless problem, orphan problem, prison system overcrowding, AND help world hunger.

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Re: "Hope + Change = Presidency"
« Reply #81 on: Jun 27, 2008, 08:23:37 AM »
What about people as fuel?  That'll fix our energy problem, homeless problem, orphan problem, prison system overcrowding, AND help world hunger.

I would think a person would have to have a lot of fat to be a good source of fuel. The homeless and orphans arn't known for having a lot of fat on them. Better off using the fat ladies at Wal-Mart that always take the motorized carts cause walking is too much of a hassle.

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Re: "Hope + Change = Presidency"
« Reply #82 on: Jun 27, 2008, 09:04:29 PM »
My aunt!   :o


Anyway, it doesn't matter that they're so skinny.  That's why you use a lot of them.

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Re: "Hope + Change = Presidency"
« Reply #83 on: Jun 29, 2008, 01:23:15 AM »
Then we need to create more homeless. I doubt Bush will be needing his Weather Machine now that he is leaving office. We can get it for a steal.

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Re: "Hope + Change = Presidency"
« Reply #84 on: Jun 30, 2008, 01:37:24 AM »
And drilling in Alaska would not produce enough oil to even come close to breaking OPECs hold. It would litterally be a drop in the hat. We would have to increase our oil production many times to even keep up with them. Not to mention it will take years, if not decades before we start seeing that Crude Oil on the open Market.

If ANWR were the only place to drill, you'd be right.  Luckily there's billions of barrels available by tapping well-known oil shale reserves (unaccessible until recently), off-shore drilling (better for us to get it than China and Cuba, paragons of ecological responsibility), and in enormous fields recently found in North Dakota and Montana.  And if you're one of those who think it'll take over a decade to get the oil in the supply, think again.  Another point to chew on: if Clinton had tapped ANWR in the mid-nineties, we'd be getting it now.

But our production wouldn't have to be increased "many times" to overcome the OPEC stranglehold.  We wouldn't even have to double domestic production to kick their asses...the U.S. is already the third biggest producer in the world, all without tapping those unbelievably huge deposits we're talking about.  Doubling our production within the next decade would not only be possible but easily so, and we'd still have enough to get us through the lion's share of the 21st century as we stride towards the discovery and implementation of renewable, greener, economical sources of fuel.

Well really Ethanol doesn't effect the cost to grow cr0n either. I mean other then Corn seed going up, but that is just supply and demand factor in play again.  When Supply catches up....price will go down.

Why would cr0n seed become more expensive and not cr0n food products?  The problem we're about to have to face head-on is one of cr0n supply, which is going to impact more than just the energy industry.  Not only is our ethanol production still unreasonably high (and expected to remain so for some time) and resulting in high prices for the stuff itself, but the diverted supplies also impact food prices...everything from canned cream cr0n to beef (since they feed cr0n to cows) to Coca-Cola (since it uses cr0n syrup).  It's already happening, particularly in poorer sections of the world.  And that's a more pressing matter than getting ethanol on the market, in my estimation.

And just cause there is not a current way to make it more efficient doesn't mean we should just go "Oh well...guess will just use Oil for the 50 years and not bother with that till we run out." That's stupid, and really doesn't do anything to get us out of the situation we are in now.

Stupid?  Giving up on oil and pinning all hope on half-baked pseudo-solutions that negatively impact other vital industries, require extensive subsidies to maintain, and impacts food supplies is far more stupid than drilling for more black gold.  You can research and develop new means of converting cr0n without diverting a huge percentage of the food supply towards the effort.  Personally, though, I don't foresee any such method being discovered, as the physical properties of cr0n aren't going to change, and that's the primary reason for the inefficiency of current processes. 

But forcing the current inefficient methods on the industry is foolish unless they intend to continue subsidizing it at the insane rate they're doing it now.  Economic pressures will eventually force the industry to back off unless some magic ethanol production bullet is found...the only question being, how much worse shape will we be in before we realize we've been flushing money down the toilet?  And it'll take longer to discover, develop, and deploy such a method than it will to get new oil reserves online.

Same with Electric cars. They don't work very well now, but that doesn't mean we should just give up on them. I mean imagine if Bell invented his Telephone and then just went..."Well I can't make it better with what I got, better just give up and go back to using the Telegraph." We wouldn't be having this debate right here if that happened.

Electric cars face two problems: battery storage, and powet for the batteries.  There have been developmental advances in battery technologies in the area of higher efficiency cathode/anode conductors and higher dielectric materials, so we may be seeing more advanced storage techniques in the near future.  I personally believe we'd be better off to focus on the use of capacitative storage via supercapacitors than traditional batteries due to faster charge time and being chemically safer (just don't touch the bastards bare-handed), but I haven't spent a lot of time on the subject since college (I focused on control engineering instead of material engineering, anyway). 

The second would be alleviated by the advent of expanded domestic nuclear generation, but that's at least as many years off as the new storage tech.  But we're still looking at oil to drive the economy over the next ten to twenty years.  It's the only thing that makes sense.

Given how much things like the computer have advanced in as little as ten years it's entirely possible that these methods could take the place of oil very easily in the next 5-10 years, but we have to actual work at it and not just go with the status quo....which if you haven't noticed isn't really working at the moment. There could be a cr0n gin out there....but we won't know if we don't bother trying to make one.

You may notice that computers haven't really changed that much...they've just gotten smaller and faster, but things still work exactly as they have for some time.  In fact, we're nearing the limits of current technologies.  Silicon semiconductors and copper and gold wiring can only go so far before they reach their physical limits and the technology is eclipsed by something new, such as optical or biological computing, or maybe something even more esoteric. 

The energy industry is at a similar crossroads.  We have to have a major change in thinking somewhere along the line in order to move on to something better, because there's currently very little that's realizable in the near future.  One thing I know for sure is that ethanol is not the answer, maybe not even part of the answer.  It'll take time before it becomes evident enough for everyone to see.  I just hope it won't take doubled food prices and unmitigated fuel costs for it to happen.
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Re: "Hope + Change = Presidency"
« Reply #85 on: Jun 30, 2008, 01:52:23 PM »
BLOCK OF TEXT OMG!
I said its hot outside let me go swimming in your eyes;
We been running for awhile. Why don't you lay dow, I'll make you smile.
I could never ask for nothing better than this;
It's just tequila and the beach, it's quite salty when we kiss.

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Re: "Hope + Change = Presidency"
« Reply #86 on: Jun 30, 2008, 04:28:37 PM »
Dude, my brain already died several posts earlier than that.  :lol:

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Re: "Hope + Change = Presidency"
« Reply #87 on: Jun 30, 2008, 04:30:59 PM »
It's cute. :)
I said its hot outside let me go swimming in your eyes;
We been running for awhile. Why don't you lay dow, I'll make you smile.
I could never ask for nothing better than this;
It's just tequila and the beach, it's quite salty when we kiss.

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Re: "Hope + Change = Presidency"
« Reply #88 on: Jun 30, 2008, 06:47:58 PM »
SUGAR CANE ETHANOL.


If we can find a way to grow Sugar Cane around here in the US, it would be far better than cr0n.

Or use biodiesel from animal and food waste instead of ethanol.

It's crazy that we're letting other countries starve for our alternative energy.


Of course, since all the world's problems are due to too many people, Nuri's idea may not be a bad idea. Starving Hatians for fuel?
« Last Edit: Jun 30, 2008, 08:15:56 PM by Dangerous D »
I like to go down to the playground and watch the kids run and jump and scream, because they don't know I'm only using blanks.

Modern anime is a stagnant cesspool of regurgitated ideas.

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Political Correctness is a doctrine, fostered by a delusional, illogical, liberal minority and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a turd by the clean end.