The Sphere
General Garbage => Tropical Paradise of Hard Shelled Fruits => Topic started by: The D on Jan 03, 2006, 09:42:35 PM
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NOTE:: The guy who wrote this used to be a minister.
If God is everywhere, is he in hell?
This opens up a slew of contradictions. Either the Christian god is not omnipresent or he steps foot into the epitome of evil. This is not the only time we'd see god dancing with the devil. (see Job)
The problem with Hell is that God, assuming He exists, will be there, too. After all, He is omnipresent and is therefore everywhere. If he is not in Hell, he is not omnipresent, and that would blow a hole in the religious theory. Therefore,God is in Hell.
If evolution didn't/doesn't occur...
-Why are there different human races?
-Why are there worthless chunks of DNA (IE introns) in every organism's genome?
-Why do we have an appendix?
-Why do we have a third undeveloped eyelid (nictating membrane)?
-Why do we have a tail bone (caudal vertebrae of coccyx)?
-Why do we have gills in fetal development?
-Why do we have muscles in our nostrils and ears?
-Why do we have wisdom teeth?
-Why do we get goosebumps?
-Why are our eyes most attuned to see red objects on a green background?
-Why are we made (70%) of salt water and not dust? If we were made from clay, wouldn't we have dust particles? Or is it the fact that water is what is needed to keep out bodies healthy and hydrated, whereas if we were made from clay, out bodies would deteriorate when we swam or were hit by water
-Why doesn't penicillin work anymore?
-Why does the flu come back every year?
-Why are our retinas backwards?
-Why are our brains contralateral to our bodies?
-Why are there genetic defects?
-Why do species go extinct?
-Why do boa constrictors have hip bones and undeveloped hind legs?
-Why do manatees have fingernails on their fins?
-Why do baleen whales have pelvic bones?
-Animals are created before man in (Gen 1:25). The animals made on the 5th day and man on the 6th. However, God blatantly creates animals after man in (Gen 2:19). Because man was lonely, God said "I will make a suitable helper for him" and made the animals. No animals suited him, so Adam made Eve. The literal contradiction occurs with the words "God made" in all translations of the bible, except of course the newest ones which say "God had made". But the obvious logical contradiction remains. I checked the evil and discovered that this is even in the most recent ones.
Food for Thought:
1. Not even 1/3 of the Earth is Christian
2. There have been over 34,000 seperate Christian groups identified
3. Though they preach love and tolerance, they are the sole cause of crusades, inquisitions, witch trials, the KKK, Nazis, abortion clinic bombing, and suicidal cults.
5. In order to be a Christian you must love Satan-
-That's right, as Jesus commanded "love your enemies". Well if Satan isn't your enemy, you have bigger problems than loving him.
6. Jesus is actually based off Mithra.
-The story of a divine child being born of a virgin mother on December 25th, performing healings and resurrections, having 12 disciples (the signs of the zodiac), and having a last supper with flattened bread (which had crosses on them by the way to symbolize the sun) was all done a few thousand years before Jesus. Yes, Jesus is a rip-off of the Persian god of "light and truth" (those symbols Sound familiar?). Mithra makes Jesus look like a cheesy rerun. Look up Mithra yourself if you don't believe me.
7. The Christmas tree is pagan
-In order to convert pagan Germany into Christianity, Christians adopted their false god (trees) into the festival of Christmas. "See guys, we worship trees too". ONE OF US! ONE OF US!
-Interestingly enough, this custom is condemned by the bible in Jeremiah 10:1-5. "Do not learn the ways of the nations... they cut a tree out of the forest...they adorn it with silver and gold"
8. Christianity is on the decline
-Though the gross number may be increasing, the percentage per capita on Earth is rapidly declining. Never has it been so difficult to find priests and pastors to spread the word of God. It's no wonder missionary work is so popular these days- "Give us your worship and we'll give you some bread". Without a second thought, Ethiopia says "K!".
9. Humans are not the only sentient creatures.
-We think we are special because we have the capacity to think, reason, and realize that we are people. This is the Christian explanation of the mind- a soul. Unfortunately, many primate species and dolphins are also self-aware (IE with "theory of mind", self-recognition etc). So either we go to heaven with dolphins or we don't go anywhere. Which sounds more logical to you?
10. Hitler is in Heaven. Ghandi is in hell.
-According to the theory of "grace", a belief in Jesus is the only way to enter heaven. By this logic, Ghandi a major world-peace activist and pacifist is burning away in hell. Meanwhile, Hitler a believer in Jesus and killer of millions, rests happily next to God.
11. You don't need Jesus to go to heaven. You don't even need to believe in God. -In fact, Matthew 19:16-19 proves this "Blasphemous statement".
-16 Now a man came up to Jesus and asked, "Teacher, what good thing must I do to get eternal life?"
17 "Why do you ask me about what is good?" Jesus replied. "There is only One who is good. If you want to enter life, obey the commandments."
18 "Which ones?" the man inquired
19 Jesus replied, "Do not murder, do not commit adultery, do not steal, do not give false testimony, honor your father and mother, 'and 'love your neighbor as yourself."
As we all know according to Hebrew history, a cubit is the length of one's forearm. If you calculate the dimensions of the ark ([300cubits=450feet] x [50 cubits=75 feet] x 3 decks totaling 101,250 cubic ft), you see that it isn't even large enough to fit 40 days worth of food for all animals in the world, let alone all the animals themselves. Remember, there are MILLIONS of animal species in the animal kingdom (the hundreds of thousands of vertebrates make up only 1% of animals on earth). Assuming every animal took 1 inch of space, and you have at least 2 of each species, you still wouldn't have enough room. This also leaves room to ask, "Why did Christians think the animals of Australia were a hoax if there was already a previous knowledge of them?" (See: platypus) or "How can we still be discovering new species of animals?" And finally, if dinosaurs weren't carried on the ark, then Noah didn't fulfill the will of God. [IE, God told Noah to take EVERY animal on the Ark]
And
http://evilbible.com (http://evilbible.com)
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Wow, an entire post filled with high school philosophy. A lot of those are the kind of revelations you'd expect to hear from a group of teenagers getting high in their parents basement.
See also: The Matrix.. ("What if, like, everything we see is just an illusion? I mean, imagine it, we could all be sitting in chairs somewhere with our minds hooked up to, like, computers or something. Maybe none of this is real...")
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Hahaha, tell it like it is, Shelly! Hey Doug, wanna take the red pill or the blue pill? Both are suppositories, I may add...
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I could probably find an article I read somewhere and just post it so I look smart. You know, if I was an idiot with something to prove.
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I never understood why Aethist have such a hard on for converting people to thier way of thinking. I mean what if you don't convert me am I going to Aethist Hell? Are you worried that my Soul might not go to Aethist Heaven if I believe in God? What a fucking waste of time.
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I find being an agnostic is a far better choice, considering that it's not entirely pessimistic, and I don't have to worry about buying into any false prophets.
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*sigh* I suppose I'll go ahead and nibble the bait. If you want references, and I doubt you want to get that deeply in these particular waters, I'll provide them in a subsequent posting. But you really should learn your stuff before parroting what some fool has said elsewhere.
NOTE:: The guy who wrote this used to be a minister.
Many of today's seminary students don't believe the Bible is accurate, that Jesus was not virgin born, the Trinity is a hoax, and numerous other fundamental Christian doctrines. So the fact that he was never saved goes a long way to discredit his sincerity and doesn't impart any import at all.
If God is everywhere, is he in hell?
This opens up a slew of contradictions. Either the Christian god is not omnipresent or he steps foot into the epitome of evil. This is not the only time we'd see god dancing with the devil. (see Job)
The problem with Hell is that God, assuming He exists, will be there, too. After all, He is omnipresent and is therefore everywhere. If he is not in Hell, he is not omnipresent, and that would blow a hole in the religious theory. Therefore,God is in Hell.
A couple misconceptions:
1) "Omnipresence" is an attribute of God because He is transcendent over those things which He has created...in this case, time and space itself. He's also not physically present in and about all things, since He's a spirit (which demolishes the pantheistic and animistic viewpoints on spirtuality). He can and does withdraw His presence from those who reject Him, as it is against God's nature to force Himself where He is unwelcome. Therefore, hell is exactly what the rejector chooses, as the very definition of hell is the absence of God and a place of punishment.
2) Hell is not the domain of evil, but the only place left for the rejector. Rejecting God causes the unbeliever to be faced with a problem of where to go. Since the only place left where God is not is the lake of fire which was prepared for the devil and the fallen angels from time immemorial, that's the only place left for them to go.
3) God didn't "dance" with the devil in the book of Job, and its asinine to say so. The devil, or Satan, which means "adversary", serves not only the agent for the non-God option for human free will, but an "accuser of the brethren", and as such as access to God's court but not His blessings.
Therefore, I've already defeated your argument.
If evolution didn't/doesn't occur...
-Why are there different human races?
-Why are there worthless chunks of DNA (IE introns) in every organism's genome?
-Why do we have an appendix?
-Why do we have a third undeveloped eyelid (nictating membrane)?
-Why do we have a tail bone (caudal vertebrae of coccyx)?
-Why do we have gills in fetal development?
-Why do we have muscles in our nostrils and ears?
-Why do we have wisdom teeth?
-Why do we get goosebumps?
-Why are our eyes most attuned to see red objects on a green background?
-Why are we made (70%) of salt water and not dust? If we were made from clay, wouldn't we have dust particles? Or is it the fact that water is what is needed to keep out bodies healthy and hydrated, whereas if we were made from clay, out bodies would deteriorate when we swam or were hit by water
-Why doesn't penicillin work anymore?
-Why does the flu come back every year?
-Why are our retinas backwards?
-Why are our brains contralateral to our bodies?
-Why are there genetic defects?
-Why do species go extinct?
-Why do boa constrictors have hip bones and undeveloped hind legs?
-Why do manatees have fingernails on their fins?
-Why do baleen whales have pelvic bones?
-Animals are created before man in (Gen 1:25). The animals made on the 5th day and man on the 6th. However, God blatantly creates animals after man in (Gen 2:19). Because man was lonely, God said "I will make a suitable helper for him" and made the animals. No animals suited him, so Adam made Eve. The literal contradiction occurs with the words "God made" in all translations of the bible, except of course the newest ones which say "God had made". But the obvious logical contradiction remains. I checked the evil and discovered that this is even in the most recent ones.
This one's easy. Who said evolution didn't/doesn't exist? It just isn't accountable for the origin of the universe, earth, or the myriad species residing thereon. But if it was, it can't explain DNA at all...it's an encoded language with information on it that cannot possibly be the process of random protein combinations in a single case in 10 billion years, much less countless billions of cases in a much shorter span. And as for why there are vestigial organs and structures and etc., I imagine even God is allowed to cut and paste. And odd combinations of structures and their non-symmetry only serve as further evidence discounting evolution.
Some of those supposed evidences for evolution are a real laugh (if penicillin no longer works, why is it still prescribed? And I'm sure not everyone has to have wisdom teeth pulled), but for those few which aren't, they still prove nothing. And the Bible accounts for a lot of these "errors" with the explanation of the effects of the fall of mankind upon the rest of creation. So things aren't exactly as they were at the end of the second chapter of Genesis. One could argue, if anal enough, that evolution itself is a result of the fall. Oh, and when you ask "the animals" were created before or after man, which ones are you talking about? Bear in mind that Gen. 2 doesn't necessarily provide a chronology.
Food for Thought:
1. Not even 1/3 of the Earth is Christian
I doubt it's anywhere near that much. This presupposes that each and every member of every so-called "Christian" church is actually saved. "Many are called, and few are chosen," because those so called rejected the call or believed another gospel than that given in the Bible.
2. There have been over 34,000 seperate Christian groups identified
Again, I say "Christian" groups.
3. Though they preach love and tolerance, they are the sole cause of crusades, inquisitions, witch trials, the KKK, Nazis, abortion clinic bombing, and suicidal cults.
See above. If you notice, none of those responsible are what I would classify as Christian fundamentalists...by which I mean people who take the whole Bible and it only as the rule for their faith. And the fundamental law of the true Christian faith is love. "By their fruits, ye shall know them"...I couldn't have said it better, myself.
5. In order to be a Christian you must love Satan-
-That's right, as Jesus commanded "love your enemies". Well if Satan isn't your enemy, you have bigger problems than loving him.
Maybe, except that Jesus was refering to one's fellow man in the sermon on the mount. Read it yourself.
6. Jesus is actually based off Mithra.
-The story of a divine child being born of a virgin mother on December 25th, performing healings and resurrections, having 12 disciples (the signs of the zodiac), and having a last supper with flattened bread (which had crosses on them by the way to symbolize the sun) was all done a few thousand years before Jesus. Yes, Jesus is a rip-off of the Persian god of "light and truth" (those symbols Sound familiar?). Mithra makes Jesus look like a cheesy rerun. Look up Mithra yourself if you don't believe me.
You can go back to Babylonian mythology if you want to, since there you'll find the first picture of the madonna and child. However, these were mystery religions...not everyone was privvy to their beliefs. And the Bible also declares (and historical similarities bear it out) that Satan is the god of the world and has instituted his own religions, which a careful reading of the OT (and Revelation in particular) will reveal is often a copy of the true faith.
It's only through fortunate archaeological finds that we know jack about Mithra. But the fact remains that there are Roman and Jewish accounts of Jesus' deeds, death, and apparent resurrection, and that many records show that the belief that He was the Son of God was held from the very start of the Church. The things He said and did are completely different from the accounts of the pagan charlatans.
7. The Christmas tree is pagan
-In order to convert pagan Germany into Christianity, Christians adopted their false god (trees) into the festival of Christmas. "See guys, we worship trees too". ONE OF US! ONE OF US!
-Interestingly enough, this custom is condemned by the bible in Jeremiah 10:1-5. "Do not learn the ways of the nations... they cut a tree out of the forest...they adorn it with silver and gold"
Exactly why Christmas actually shouldn't be celebrated, IMO...the whole THING is pagan! In fact, Paul writes that Christians aren't to observe high or holy days. But it's yet another instance where the Church wants to be in line with its worldly neighbors. Then again, one reason I don't hold the Catholic church to be Christian is because of the degree of paganism it espouses...more pagan than Christian, in fact.
8. Christianity is on the decline
-Though the gross number may be increasing, the percentage per capita on Earth is rapidly declining. Never has it been so difficult to find priests and pastors to spread the word of God. It's no wonder missionary work is so popular these days- "Give us your worship and we'll give you some bread". Without a second thought, Ethiopia says "K!".
Which is no biggie, as one of the signs Jesus gave to His disciples of the last times is a little thing called "apostacy".
9. Humans are not the only sentient creatures.
-We think we are special because we have the capacity to think, reason, and realize that we are people. This is the Christian explanation of the mind- a soul. Unfortunately, many primate species and dolphins are also self-aware (IE with "theory of mind", self-recognition etc). So either we go to heaven with dolphins or we don't go anywhere. Which sounds more logical to you?
Sentience != mind != eternal soul. Man is a spiritual being. Animals are not. All dogs do not go to heaven.
10. Hitler is in Heaven. Ghandi is in hell.
-According to the theory of "grace", a belief in Jesus is the only way to enter heaven. By this logic, Ghandi a major world-peace activist and pacifist is burning away in hell. Meanwhile, Hitler a believer in Jesus and killer of millions, rests happily next to God.
More whacked out Catholicism for you. Hitler, in good standing with the Church, still has a chance, except for the little thing of pergatory, if it even existed. In actually, Hitler and Ghandi both went to hell for the same reason.
11. You don't need Jesus to go to heaven. You don't even need to believe in God. -In fact, Matthew 19:16-19 proves this "Blasphemous statement".
-16 Now a man came up to Jesus and asked, "Teacher, what good thing must I do to get eternal life?"
17 "Why do you ask me about what is good?" Jesus replied. "There is only One who is good. If you want to enter life, obey the commandments."
18 "Which ones?" the man inquired
19 Jesus replied, "Do not murder, do not commit adultery, do not steal, do not give false testimony, honor your father and mother, 'and 'love your neighbor as yourself."
Again, this "minister" shows his ignorance. Who has ever followed the commandments perfectly? No one but Jesus. And His work on the cross makes up for the fact that people are imperfect and "imputes" His righteousness to the believer. So, yes, you still need Him.
As we all know according to Hebrew history, a cubit is the length of one's forearm. If you calculate the dimensions of the ark ([300cubits=450feet] x [50 cubits=75 feet] x 3 decks totaling 101,250 cubic ft), you see that it isn't even large enough to fit 40 days worth of food for all animals in the world, let alone all the animals themselves. Remember, there are MILLIONS of animal species in the animal kingdom (the hundreds of thousands of vertebrates make up only 1% of animals on earth). Assuming every animal took 1 inch of space, and you have at least 2 of each species, you still wouldn't have enough room. This also leaves room to ask, "Why did Christians think the animals of Australia were a hoax if there was already a previous knowledge of them?" (See: platypus) or "How can we still be discovering new species of animals?" And finally, if dinosaurs weren't carried on the ark, then Noah didn't fulfill the will of God. [IE, God told Noah to take EVERY animal on the Ark]
Laying aside the typical arguments of animal hibernation due to temperatures and low lighting and the fact that many can go a while without much food (and there was plenty of water!) and how taking sevens and twos of every kind does not necessarily mean species; one of the overriding themes of the Bible is God's provision. If a God would give a blueprint for a giant flood He was planning 120 years in advance, would He not make some way of ensuring survival, as He did with the wandering nation of Israel in the OT?
Anyway, that was fun, if a bit trivial.
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The thing about evolution that there's so much controversy over isn't evolution itself. You can watch bacteria evolve through a microscope. What people are in a big snit about is actually specieization - that is, the belief that animals adapt to their envoronments and circumstances and evolve accordingly. And even then, people tend to make mistakes - saying that humans evolved from apes, when the theory, and it really is only that, is that humans and apes share a common ancestor and that there were different circumstances that caused each particular evolution.
Really, there is no difference between science and religion. The only thing that is remotedly different about science is the fact that it's constantly changing as evidence is gathered, rather than hanging rather stubbornly onto one set of beliefs.
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I just don't care.
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Best arguement ever. :D
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*sigh* I suppose I'll go ahead and nibble the bait. If you want references, and I doubt you want to get that deeply in these particular waters, I'll provide them in a subsequent posting. But you really should learn your stuff before parroting what some fool has said elsewhere.
I actually read all of Squirrel's post. Amazing. And while reading it, I sensed he had a Christian bias, which is why I question his answers.
1) "Omnipresence" is an attribute of God because He is transcendent over those things which He has created...in this case, time and space itself. He's also not physically present in and about all things, since He's a spirit (which demolishes the pantheistic and animistic viewpoints on spirtuality). He can and does withdraw His presence from those who reject Him, as it is against God's nature to force Himself where He is unwelcome. Therefore, hell is exactly what the rejector chooses, as the very definition of hell is the absence of God and a place of punishment.
So, you're saying that those people who don't believe in God or Jesus because they were raised in a different religion, or they're atheist, should go to Hell? Because they rejected God?
First off, If God really exists (and this is not provable unless something like my sig happens), I find it hard to believe that just because someone doesn't believe in him, he's rejecting him, or even hates him. How can you reject something you don't even believe in? It's not like the non-believers are saying "Fuck you god, I don't want you." THEY JUST DON'T BELIEVE. And if they die, I don't see why they can't go to heaven, because it's not like they can't stand God's presence, they just didn't believe he existed until then. You can go to Heaven not believing, be proven wrong and find out God really does exist, and then love him.
You fail.
This one's easy. Who said evolution didn't/doesn't exist? It just isn't accountable for the origin of the universe, earth, or the myriad species residing thereon. But if it was, it can't explain DNA at all...it's an encoded language with information on it that cannot possibly be the process of random protein combinations in a single case in 10 billion years, much less countless billions of cases in a much shorter span. And as for why there are vestigial organs and structures and etc., I imagine even God is allowed to cut and paste. And odd combinations of structures and their non-symmetry only serve as further evidence discounting evolution.
This reeks of the argument of a Creationist or a Intellgent Design believer, or as I like to call them, IDiots. "There's no way evolution could have created DNA. Evolution doesn't explain the origin of the universe (who said it did?). Vistigial organs are God's mistake." Stop making lame excuses.
You can go back to Babylonian mythology if you want to, since there you'll find the first picture of the madonna and child. However, these were mystery religions...not everyone was privvy to their beliefs. And the Bible also declares (and historical similarities bear it out) that Satan is the god of the world and has instituted his own religions, which a careful reading of the OT (and Revelation in particular) will reveal is often a copy of the true faith.
Oh, so all those religions that came before were created by Satan to decieve man? Ha, good one. Got any proof of that?
Did you know that the Hebrew law and 10 Commandments that Moses created were based off the code of hammurabi, and that there were bablyonian legends of a Flood and Ark way way before the bible was even thought up?
It's only through fortunate archaeological finds that we know jack about Mithra. But the fact remains that there are Roman and Jewish accounts of Jesus' deeds, death, and apparent resurrection, and that many records show that the belief that He was the Son of God was held from the very start of the Church. The things He said and did are completely different from the accounts of the pagan charlatans.
You have any proof of those "Roman records?"
Exactly why Christmas actually shouldn't be celebrated, IMO...the whole THING is pagan! In fact, Paul writes that Christians aren't to observe high or holy days. But it's yet another instance where the Church wants to be in line with its worldly neighbors. Then again, one reason I don't hold the Catholic church to be Christian is because of the degree of paganism it espouses...more pagan than Christian, in fact.
So, even though Christmas is now to celebrate the birth of Jesus, it shouldn't be celebrated? And the Catholic church is wrong and not Christian. Oh that's good. That's great. I don't like the Catholic church, but I still consider them Christian. And I think you're an idiot for saying Christmas should be abandoned. Keep sticking your foot down your mouth, please.
[More whacked out Catholicism for you. Hitler, in good standing with the Church, still has a chance, except for the little thing of pergatory, if it even existed. In actually, Hitler and Ghandi both went to hell for the same reason.
I assume it's not because the first one was a mass murderer, and the other one was someone who wanted world peace. I assume it's because they're not true Christians. I don't care if Hitler goes to hell or not, but the fact you think Ghandi went to hell even though he loved peace proves what a dumbfuck you are. With all Ghandi did, I'm sure he'd go to heaven.
[Laying aside the typical arguments of animal hibernation due to temperatures and low lighting and the fact that many can go a while without much food (and there was plenty of water!) and how taking sevens and twos of every kind does not necessarily mean species; one of the overriding themes of the Bible is God's provision. If a God would give a blueprint for a giant flood He was planning 120 years in advance, would He not make some way of ensuring survival, as He did with the wandering nation of Israel in the OT?
Allowing for the fact that some of the billions of animals and plants out there could survive a flood by swimming or hiding underground, there's still no way you could take all the animals that needed dry land and fit them on an Ark, unless it was by a Godly powet. And if that's the case, why did God give the entire task to one man that wouldn't even be able to do it by himself, and even give him dimensions for the ark that were way too small?
I'm sorry, but every single one of your arguments are religiously biased. I'll admit that I did copy this directly from a forum, so some of them might be wrong, but the idea is to get you to think, not for you to wave around your biased and crooked religious beliefs. Sorry, your arguments fail horribly.
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I've been reading the old testament while on the shitter recently. Old Testament God is a RAW ASS MOTHERFUCKER! He would fuck you up just as soon as look at you if you don't obey and fear him. He got angry. He fucked shit up hardcore. Then he realized what he did was wrong and promised not to do it again.
This is a God I can identify with.
I was definitely made in his image.
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The first thing I wondered when I saw this thread is why the hell anyone would need to hear "Thoughts on Christianity" from Doug, regurgitated or otherwise.
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Best arguement ever. :D
I didn't read the whole topic, but I bet it could all be argued with
"The Lord works in mysterious ways."
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Or in the case of Doug, not at all.
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Pretty much.
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Doug, you have the argumentative skills of a rotting piece of wood. Why do you even bother? It's like....like Macaws or parrots. SUre they can speak a few words here or there, but they really just don't know what they're saying.
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I can't believe you all read what was in this thread. I didn't read anything.
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I can't believe you all read what was in this thread. I didn't read anything.
Go back and read doug's rebuttals to squirrel. I found them highly amusing.
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Me too...
Hey DS, you should introduce Doug to Kalidor.
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As did I.
I actually read all of Squirrel's post. Amazing. And while reading it, I sensed he had a Christian bias, which is why I question his answers.
The "you're biased!" means jack squat. Of course I am. If I weren't, I wouldn't have bothered responding. And, dude...listen to yourself. Answer this: are you NOT biased? My Shwiggie Sense[dohtml]™[/dohtml] tells me that you have "antiChristian bias"...but what bearing does this have on anything? In any case, good luck finding anyone who isn't and is still willing to discuss it at any length. It's even harder than finding someone willing to discuss anything with you at all.
Also, do you present anything that remotely contradicts what I presented? No, you don't. So quit pretending you know anything about the subject aside from "well, it's MY OPINION!"
So, you're saying that those people who don't believe in God or Jesus because they were raised in a different religion, or they're atheist, should go to Hell? Because they rejected God?
First off, If God really exists (and this is not provable unless something like my sig happens), I find it hard to believe that just because someone doesn't believe in him, he's rejecting him, or even hates him. How can you reject something you don't even believe in? It's not like the non-believers are saying "Fuck you god, I don't want you." THEY JUST DON'T BELIEVE. And if they die, I don't see why they can't go to heaven, because it's not like they can't stand God's presence, they just didn't believe he existed until then. You can go to Heaven not believing, be proven wrong and find out God really does exist, and then love him.
You fail.
First, what constitutes a Christian is not for you to decide, but for Christ (for your benefit, I'll couple that with "whoever made up the Bible"). Why should God not set standards for entrance into His heaven? And why should He go out of His way to force you to believe on Him? I'm willing to bet that, if He did do the booming voice from the sky thing, you'd probably still not turn to Him in love. You've already told yourself that the universe is happenstance and attributable to natural causes, so what's the difference? You've already decided "fuck God, I'll do as I please, to hell with the Church and that obey stuff." So that argument of yours is nullified.
Who fails?
This reeks of the argument of a Creationist or a Intellgent Design believer, or as I like to call them, IDiots. "There's no way evolution could have created DNA. Evolution doesn't explain the origin of the universe (who said it did?). Vistigial organs are God's mistake." Stop making lame excuses.
You calling anyone else an idiot is of great hilarity. Nice one! (http://www.shwiggie.com/boards/emoticons/joker.gif) There is currently NO reasonable explanation for the initiation and advanced development of DNA in evolutionary theory (theology?). Also, you can prove evolution no more than you can "God done it", so it's no more fantastical to believe that. And I NEVER said vestigial organs are a mistake on God's part.
Oh, so all those religions that came before were created by Satan to decieve man? Ha, good one. Got any proof of that?
Did you know that the Hebrew law and 10 Commandments that Moses created were based off the code of hammurabi, and that there were bablyonian legends of a Flood and Ark way way before the bible was even thought up?
Got any proof that it wasn't? The uniformity of it across almost every culture and in every region lends credence to this concept. Or it could be due to the system being true. THEN you can come in and pick it apart and ask why it doesn't mesh.
As for the origin of the Ten Commandments, did you know that it doesn't matter that the Code of Hammurabi predates it? The Bible says in Romans 2:15 that Gentiles (non-Jews who weren't given the commandments) have a "law written in their hearts", which is natural law...that underlie the basic morality of all people.
You have any proof of those "Roman records?"
Letters written by Gentiles, such as Thallus, Mara Bar-Serapion, Tacitus, Pliny, Suetonius also survive, and they portray Jesus as a historical figure. The Jewish historian Josephus wrote an account that regards Jesus as a historical figure who did great works (though said to be the work of a later Christian revision, this has never been proven to be any more than speculation). Then there's also the fact that neither the Jews nor the Romans could prove the early Christians in error...it's one thing to contest ancient theologies, but more so to combat something done before the very eyes of hundreds of people.
I leave reading them as an exercise for you.
So, even though Christmas is now to celebrate the birth of Jesus, it shouldn't be celebrated? And the Catholic church is wrong and not Christian. Oh that's good. That's great. I don't like the Catholic church, but I still consider them Christian. And I think you're an idiot for saying Christmas should be abandoned. Keep sticking your foot down your mouth, please.
You apparently don't realize that we've moved headlong into personal opinion and interpretation. Frankly, I don't care that you don't share my opinion...it only makes it more right in my eyes that you disagree. You certainly provide no rational reasons for me to re-evaluate it. As for my abandonment statement, Christmas has no real religious value to me personally...the only reason I went to church on Christmas this year was because it fell on a Sunday. Just to shock the rest of the crap out of you, I'm not big on Easter either, but the fact that it's not so commercialized (but is creeping up there) makes it easier for me to ignore.
And since we're back to insults, just keep sticking your head up your ass, please. Everybody else has held you to be an idiot long ago, so I'm not sure what weight the whining of a pedophilic shaven monkey could possibly carry with anyone.
I assume it's not because the first one was a mass murderer, and the other one was someone who wanted world peace. I assume it's because they're not true Christians. I don't care if Hitler goes to hell or not, but the fact you think Ghandi went to hell even though he loved peace proves what a dumbfuck you are. With all Ghandi did, I'm sure he'd go to heaven.
Hitler's status as a mass murderer only reflects his heart...even the dumbest nonreligious person knows that Christians aren't supposed to act like that. I can't judge one's relationship with God, but I can look at the person and tell you what I see...and I see a man who was ripe for hell. As for Ghandi, he staked his eternal future on Hinduism (or his peculiar brand of it), which is a path to something but it sure isn't God's heaven.
And seeing as you sensed that I have a Christian bias, you should realize that I believe it doesn't matter what religion you hold to when it comes to heaven. Loving your peace doesn't mean a thing when you have turned your back to God's peace. Anyone who measures their holiness by the things they've done is indicative of one who does not trust God for their own salvation.
"Dumbfuck"? Me? For a quick and easy example of the validity of this statement, to one of you conscientious observers, please contrast our spelling and use of grammar. Please, and thank you.
Allowing for the fact that some of the billions of animals and plants out there could survive a flood by swimming or hiding underground, there's still no way you could take all the animals that needed dry land and fit them on an Ark, unless it was by a Godly powet. And if that's the case, why did God give the entire task to one man that wouldn't even be able to do it by himself, and even give him dimensions for the ark that were way too small?
"unless it was by a Godly powet" is a pretty good start. You're learning! Here's one that'll cook your brain: he gathered up all the animals and food and built the ark, too! How did this ever happen? Genesis 6:20 says "fowls...cattle...every creeping thing...shall come unto thee." So Noah did no gathering of animals. For particular arguments concerning the Ark that you can take or leave, chell here (http://www.answersingenesis.org/creation/v19/i2/animals.asp) (beware, they have Christian bias!).
I'm sorry, but every single one of your arguments are religiously biased. I'll admit that I did copy this directly from a forum, so some of them might be wrong, but the idea is to get you to think, not for you to wave around your biased and crooked religious beliefs. Sorry, your arguments fail horribly.
You should be sorry. You posted this to attack Christianity before a crowd you didn't think would take it up, and lo and behold somebody called you on it. I've competently and completely addressed your attacks, and like with other topics, you're weighed in the scales and found wanting. So find another subject to bleat about, because you are obviously incapable of doing anything beyond cut and paste with regards to this one.
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That "there not being enough space on the ark" argument is total crap. Even The Weasley's have a tent that looks small on the outside but is spacious and luxurious on the inside and they are considered to not be well off financially in the wizarding community. So I'm sure Noah who had God's backing probably had something similar, nay much better, that most likely included air conditioning and whatever passed for playstation back then.
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......Holy Jesus Magnolias this thread is kinky good fun, wot?
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Maybe Noah was one of Doctor Who's early incarnations and the ark was a big old Tardis. :P
I keep running into "Christians" very much like the woman in the following:
An Observant Policeman
An honest man was being tailgated by a stressed out woman on a busy
boulevard. Suddenly, the light turned yellow, just in front of him. He did the right thing, stopping at the crosswalk, even though he could have beaten the red light by accelerating through the intersection.
The tailgating woman hit the roof, and the horn, screaming in frustration
as she missed her chance to get through the intersection, dropping her cell
phone and makeup.
As she was still in mid-rant, she heard a tap on her window and looked up
into the face of a very serious police officer.
The officer ordered her to exit her car with her hands up. He took her to
the police station where she was searched, finger printed, photographed,
and placed in a holding cell.
After a couple of hours, a policeman approached the cell and opened the
door. She was escorted back to the booking desk where the arresting officer was
waiting with her personal effects.
He said, "I'm very sorry for this mistake. You see, I pulled up behind your
car while you were blowing your horn, flipping off the guy in front of you,
and cussing a blue streak at him.
"I noticed the 'Choose Life' license plate holder, the 'What Would Jesus
Do' bumper sticker, the 'Follow Me to Sunday-School' bumper sticker, and
the chrome-plated Christian Fish emblem on the trunk.
Naturally... I assumed you had stolen the car."
And then there was my dad, who gave most of his breakfast every morning to the children digging through the Marine camp garbage in the Phillipines for food, got 2 bronze stars for pulling his bunkmates out of a shelled tent (and was the only survivor twice), and never swore once in my earshot that I can remember. Very human; got mad plenty of times and wasn't perfect, but never tried to pretend he was. He just kept that "do unto others" concept his priority. That's my standard for the meaning of Christian, and the one I try, pretty miserably most of the time, to meet.
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That "there not being enough space on the ark" argument is total crap. Even The Weasley's have a tent...
LMAO!!! God = Harry Potter. Awesome! :lol:
I can't believe you all read what was in this thread. I didn't read anything.
I didn't read anything of Doug's and very little of Shwiggie's, since it had so much of Doug's.
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Maybe Noah was one of Doctor Who's early incarnations and the ark was a big old Tardis. :P
LOL!!! Maybe it just got stuck on "Ark".
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Hitler was atheistic.
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But was obessed with the "Spear of Destiny." The Irony.
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True, but then he didn't believe in Jesus, he was more in tune with Germanic myths, and the Lance of Longinius was very akin to Odin's spear Grungir.
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It's a good thing hitler didn't know about NERV.
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NERV would have owned him. Gendo > Hitler.
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Love the fact that most of the people debate in here by saying "Doug's an idiot, his arguments suck." Good job. Those debate skills come from a college education? If that's the case, you guys might want to ask for your money back. Or, even better, just grow up a little and stop acting like a board of dumbfucks and thinking the best way of communicating is by calling someone a moron if you don't like or agree with him.
Edit: Fuck, I had a response to Squirrel, it was lost in a browswer crash. I'll type it later. Leave it to him to say God did it.
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*Sips water*
Usually I'll argue Christianity to a stand-still, but frankly... I don't feel like it.
I'll simply go this route.
I believe the Christian God is a myth. Even if he wasn't, he's nothing I'd want to worship.
*Sips water again*
Heaven sounds like a dreadful place in all honestly. I'd probably try to find a way to re-kill myself if I ended up there.
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Love the fact that most of the people debate in here--
Nobody wants to "debate" with your ass, that's the damn point. God, it's like that one whiney kid that wants to play kickball all the time and doesn't understand that no one's interested.
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thinking the best way of communicating is by calling someone a moron if you don't like or agree with him.
you do realize that y...never mind.
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ANd he validates our argument.
Game, set, and match, The Sphere board!
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*Sips water*
Usually I'll argue Christianity to a stand-still, but frankly... I don't feel like it.
I'll simply go this route.
I believe the Christian God is a myth. Even if he wasn't, he's nothing I'd want to worship.
*Sips water again*
Heaven sounds like a dreadful place in all honestly. I'd probably try to find a way to re-kill myself if I ended up there.
Most Chrisitian's views of God is something they saw from a pyramid scheme. Jerry Falwell owns three Benzes, yet gives shit to charity.
Imagine if their's no heaven, and God doesn't care because God is God and why the fuck should he care about you. We are all just meaningless specks anyways, God has more important things to worry about than Phage getting sweet birthday rape on E. Like Gravity. Do you know how hard keeping that shit together is? I have troubles with the flash games, let alone keeping a massive swirling field of atoms and Dark Matter from ripping apart into inert, warm gasses.
Hehehehe, we were made from God's fart.
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*Shrug* Entirely possible, but in which case doesn't line up with being the 'Christian' God - so no problem.
Anyways, not looking to debate, just stating my feelings.
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I know. The 'Christian' God is a fucking asshole, like some prick in the bar who spills beer on you, then demands you pay for it.
Fucking weak.
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You know what that prick in the bar should get? Lead pipe to the skull.
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You know what that prick in the bar should get? Lead pipe to the skull.
I feel the same way about D. Irony!
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Love the fact that most of the people debate in here--
Nobody wants to "debate" with your ass, that's the damn point. God, it's like that one whiney kid that wants to play kickball all the time and doesn't understand that no one's interested.
Seriously, just one game of kickball. It'll be fun, I swear!
Ok, fine, what about dodgeball? We'll even have a no head-shots rule.
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I'm in.
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Who?
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What? Where? When? Why? How? Who?
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Oh Shi-!
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Uh-ohhhhh!
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Spaghettio?
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He could fit in a spaghetti-o...
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Headshot!
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OH GOD! YOUR FACE!!!
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PORN!
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YOU RUINED IT! YOU...YOU RUINER!
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Sorry....when he said "Oh god, your face." Porn is what popped into my mind.
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Reminds me of a porno blooper...
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Oh fuck it.
What I will say is that I was raised christian. I went to church, sunday school every sunday. I went to a more conservative church, they did everything by the book. But, at the same time, I read science books.
I am not sure if God exists or not, as I have seen no proof of it. Sure, there have been wierd things that have happened that might be explained away by a diety, but then again, they just might be odd coincidences.
The way I see the bible is that it's mostly just a book of stories and opinions of people who lived long ago, but not the absolute law and word of God. It was written and re-written by man, so how can you say it's what God wants? It's just something to help you form your own opinions, not to take literaly.
I also believe that anyone has the right to believe in whatever religion they want, and that no matter what you believe, if heaven does exist, then anyone will be able to get into it, and God will judge you due to what kind of person you are, not on what religion you're a part of. And hell? Hell is nothing more than purgatory... it's only Hell for those who love God because it's an absence of God.
The reason I seem to hate Christianity is because of they way many of them act. To them, the Bible is TRUTH ABSOLUTE, and any other way is sinful and working for the devil. Anyone who does not believe in the Christian God is sent to hell without question, even if they're Ghandi. Gays, muslums, hindus, buddists, are all evil. To me, someone who takes the bible lightly and with a grain of salt, that kind of attitude is egotistical and self-centered at best, a kind of "I'm right, you're wrong, I'm going to heaven and you're not, ha ha" attitude. And that's the kind of attitude I can't stand.
So to hell with uptight christians.
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God is real and he's promised to send me to middle earth when I die.
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It's spelled "Deity".
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Well put, D. Many of my own thoughts exactly.
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For the record, I know a lot of devout Christians who are the nicest people I've ever met.
I, however, have decided to become a Pastafarian (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flying_spaghetti_monster). Much easier, and Heaven has a stripper factory. :D
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The Church of the SubGenius (http://www.subgenius.com/) has its moments, too.
For the record, I know a lot of devout Christians who are the nicest people I've ever met.
I as well. I'm fortunate to have been related to some of them. The ones who testify by example. Extremism for any passion or way of life tends to attract those who are in it to satisfy a need to feel superior, and they're the ones who rather defeat the purpose. Look at how Islam has been perverted by morons who are essentially religion otakus, albeit a lot of well-armed otakus. :mellow:
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http://www.jhuger.com/tract/dtr/index.php (http://www.jhuger.com/tract/dtr/index.php)
I hate psycho Christians. Kary's friend Sandra has now cut everyone off from her life because she has become born again (@ like 20) with her new boyfriend, and views everyone she used to like as 'bad influences'. Fuckin A.
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On a related note: :lol:
OKLAHOMA CITY -- A Baptist reverend who has spoken out against homosexuality was charged Wednesday with offering to engage in oral sex with an undercover male police officer.
The Rev. Lonnie Latham, 60, formerly senior pastor at South Tulsa Baptist Church, was charged by the district attorney's office with a single misdemeanor count of offering to engage in an act of lewdness.
Latham was released from jail on $500 bond on Jan. 4, the day after his arrest by Oklahoma City police. As he was leaving jail he said: "I was set up. I was in the area pastoring to police."
After his arrest, Latham resigned from his church, the board of directors of the Baptist General Convention of Oklahoma and the executive committee of the Southern Baptist Convention.
The American Civil Liberties Union said Latham never should have been arrested.
"Rev. Latham appears to have done nothing more than to invite someone to a hotel with him for consensual sex. That's not a crime," said Joann Bell, executive director of the ACLU of Oklahoma Foundation.
Latham, who also resigned from the executive committee of the Southern Baptist Convention, declined comment on the charge and referred inquiries to his attorney, Mack Martin of Oklahoma City. Martin said Latham will plead innocent.
Latham propositioned a male plainclothes police officer who was patrolling an area in northwest Oklahoma City that had been the focus of complaints about male prostitution, according to a probable cause affidavit that was filed with the formal charge.
Oklahoma County District Attorney Wes Lane said Oklahoma law prohibits a person from offering to engage in a lewd act "regardless of whether money is sought for or engaged."
"In this case, that is exactly what Mr. Latham is alleged to have done. To his misfortune, that individual was an Oklahoma City police officer," Lane said.
If convicted, Latham will face up to one year in jail and a fine of up to $2,500.
The ACLU said the U.S. Supreme Court has ruled that engaging in same-sex sexual relations is a constitutionally protected activity as long as it involves adults, consent, privacy and noncommercial activity.
"The Supreme Court has made it clear that consenting adults are free to do what they wish in the privacy of their own homes," Bell said. "If you follow the logic of the Oklahoma City police, everyone who tries to pick someone up at a bar is a criminal."
Lane rejected the ACLU's complaints.
"I would like to express my appreciation to the police for enforcing the laws of this state and would encourage them to continue doing so," Lane said.
Latham has spoken out against same-sex marriage and in support of a directive urging the group's 42,000 churches to befriend gays and lesbians and try to convince them they can become heterosexual "if they accept Jesus Christ as their savior and reject their 'sinful, destructive lifestyle."'
The Southern Baptist Convention is the nation's largest Protestant denomination.
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out of left field
Assuming there's a Heaven and Hell, why do people let some mysterious entity decide where they go when they die? If god gave us free will in life why can't you have free will in death?
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I don't think it does. At least that's my basis for believing in reincarnation. Not everyone wants to play golf or go fishing after they retire - lots of people start new careers. The idea of "eternal rest" doesn't sound very appealing to me. :mellow:
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I plan on working until I die. I can't begin to see myself active without having work. Every old person I know who's still working has an admirable quality to themselves...most of the retired old people who I know are either complete dicks with no concept of how things work or have either become or are becoming feeble... I don't want that.
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aahhh i love not doing anything
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My grandpa's retired and he's not feeble. Though I guess he doesn't count, becuase he manages 80 acres of land...
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Precisely, that still counts as work.
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Zero speaks the truth. My retirement accounts are really "get into a less lucrative but more enjoyable line of work in 20-odd years" accounts. Part-time at a pet daycare place, perhaps. :) I tried the stay-at-home wife routine when the company I worked for was sold. Never again. :wacko:
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Does muting Pro-wresltling and making up your own commentary count as "work" ? Cause that's what my Grandma does in his retirement.
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sounds like a winner to me.
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Grandma's a man?
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it happens
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Yeah, but it was much more costly when he lost health care.
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Indeed.
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Does muting Pro-wresltling and making up your own commentary count as "work" ? Cause that's what my Grandma does in his retirement.
Your grannie has a penis?
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Grandma Betsy doesn't come down to where you work and slap the dick out of your mouth.
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What the hell? Now I am as confused as Faye at her blood test.
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That's the new slogan for Grandma Betsy's baking powder.
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Now with more arsenic?
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Does muting Pro-wresltling and making up your own commentary count as "work" ? Cause that's what my Grandma does in his retirement.
Your grannie has a penis?
Wow...you're quick. I'd almost think that someone else pointed out that typo already, but then why would have to point it out again? So I must be mistaken. Mind is playing tricks on me in my old age I guess.
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Obviously I didn't read her comment.
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That's not my problem.
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Yeah! Refund denied!
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Double denied.
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Like I needed the .45 cents. I found more between my ass cheeks that time I fell in the fountain naked. You know what it didn't need? Susan Malvo, but now that is too damn late, isn't it.